| Archive for Lesbian Gamers .com The Forum Lesbian Gamers Forum - Video Game Talk by Girls Who Like Girls Who Like Games |
| DarkMistressSophia |
sperm made from eggs?There was a recent science news article in which they explained how they can turn a female egg into functioning sperm. Now lesbian couples can have kids together and have traits of the actual parents. Sadly, I lost the article link... I wish I had it, it thrilled me! My vision of a man-free world is coming closer to fruition! Muahaha!!! erm... ahem... hehe |
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| vou |
that sounds interesting if you ever find the link please post it | ||||||||
| Sierra |
One important implication is that this development would refute the argument that gay parents aren't really parents of their children. (Well, only in the case of lesbians, because, last I checked, men can't give birth.) | ||||||||
| masteroftheclaw |
Oh I heard about this thing! But, isn't it illegal absolutely everywhere? | ||||||||
| Sierra |
Why would it be? | ||||||||
| masteroftheclaw |
Well I don't know why exactly but that's what I heard; the procedure being illegal pretty much everywhere.
We may be ready(ARE) to produce children with our wonderful lovers, but is the world ready for us? 
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| Sierra |
Well, it is said that women are more generally more nurturing than men, and therefore, I could not imagine a more well-adjusted child than one raised by lesbians or bi women. | ||||||||
| Lucypants |
I've heard of this too. I swear it was posted on the other forum I go to, however I could never retrace the thread in which it was posted in. I was really gutted as I wanted to know more about it. I'm fairly young and not thinking of children yet but me and my partner agreed that if we would have children we'd want it to be this way, regardless of the cost.
If you find anything more about it, please let me know. =) |
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| minit |
Wow I first heard about this about ten years ago from one of my best friends who insisted that it was indeed known how to do this but it would NEVER be allowed because it removes men from reproduction and that this is a scary idea. This is also because it is so close to how some people feel about things like stem cell research. That is is immoral and playing god and all that.
I can still see her, a straight married and powerful southern belle old enough to be my mother speaking passionately about this technology and how it would never see the light of day by the men in power. She showed me alot. |
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| Sierra |
I don't find it particularly worrying. Most women seem to like the idea of having men in their lives, so I don't imagine a genocidal campaign is exactly imminent. | ||||||||
| GirlyG |
I was thinking about this last night and it bugged me becasue of something someone touched upon... Sierra 'Women are thought of as more nurturing' etc. Yes they are, when it's helpful to the male of the species it seems. Thinking about your comment and the way of the world, it would therefore make sense that if women are biologically the 'natural' carers that a lesbian couple would be the ideal in a parenting scenario, but they're not, because there is a complete doublestandard. Wpmen are the natural and perfect carers in the straight world, because it works out well for the man.
Anyway that's why it bugged me, I hadn't thought about it really on the level before, so thanks for making me. |
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| Sierra |
Thank you for bringing up this important side issue.
I think I understand what you're saying, but I disagree withyour analysis, GirlyG. Certainly, gender roles are very rigid now, and this rigidity is having a very negative effect on the world (for instance, would children not be better raised if men could break from their own gender roles and express more nurturing, affectionate behaviour?) The reason I disagree is simply this: women benefit from child-rearing just as men do. And what is this double standard you speak of? I don't deny its existence right off, but it's not immediately obvious to me. |
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| Colvin |
Are you serious, I think she has a valid couple of points.
You're a guy arent you Sierra, so you're never going to truly understand the overall issues regarding women and the forced gender roles of childcare and nurture and it is therefore unsurprising it is not obvious to you. Yes it would be great if men could suddenly learn these skills, but why should they bother, it would be like if your wife always had your dinner ready for you as you got home from work 'that's just the way it is, she's the 'wife', I work', so would you suddenly say 'honey don't cook for me any more i'll do it'... doubtful. Pick up almost any gender roles academic text and it will cover these issues. I'd love to know how you can possibly suggest women benefit from childcare, unless you are suggesting the male fed notion that being a mother is 'lazy' so the lucky lady gets to remain at home whilst poor daddy goes out for a hard days work. |
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| Margali |
I read something a few months ago about sperm being made from bone marrow as well.
I suspect the patriarchy will intervene if this kind of thing ever becomes more then a scientific curiosity. Still, it does a fuel dreams of a seperatist lesbian utopia. sigh... |
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| Sierra |
Now hold on, I'm not being dismissive. I didn't say she was wrong, per se. I was just saying I disagreed.
Yes, but I'd appreciate some faith that I might come to understand. That's why I like to have this dialogue. I was under the impression that men did not derive sole benefit of the mother's child rearing. I'm not here to defend a status quo in which men do not share a commensurate part of that task, or indeed, other tasks.
Men should bother to express these behaviours because it's ethical, fair, and right. Are you saying that gender roles are unlikely ever to fade? Because I have my reasons for optimism. For one, the gender roles were actually reversed in my family. My mom went out and had a career, and my dad was the one who stayed at home cleaning the house, doing the laundry, cooking, fixing appliances, and caring for me. Secondly, despite the massive homophobia (and therefore sexism) present in society, we are seeing some humanization of queer bodies that serve to erode these boundaries.
That wasn't the argument I was advancing at all, and if you read it, whether or not you think it's valid, it contains no part of the notion you are speaking of. I made the argument in reference to the idea of lesbians and bi women in relationships raising children, and I posited that in a queer-positive world, they would make at least as good parents as in the status quo. Even if that is because they express nurturing behaviours as a result of the status quo, that is not necessarily a bad thing. I think you'd probably agree with me that an undoing of gender roles would be the next logical step toward an ethical society. As I mentioned, it would be a step in the right direction for men to step out of heteronormative, patriarchal gender roles long enough to express the same kinds of behaviour that women have been more likely to exhibit in the status quo. The corollary to my argument is that if society takes time to undo gender roles, men have a greater distance they must travel in this regard. |
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| GirlyG |
Hi guys,
I don't do the whole let's quote every little detail of someone elses post and go through it with a fine tooth comb, so this reply is no doubt null and void really. I'll agree to disagree. I do have an unrelated question though... I assume you're a gay guy Sierra, or are you straight or bi? I wondered, what is it about a lesbian site that is a draw for you? This is an honest, non bitchy question, out of personal interest. Thanks Col 
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| Sierra |
No problem at all, Col
Ya, I'm a bi guy. I came here for a couple of reasons. One, because I thought I'd invite people who are into PC FPS gaming to come and play with Fraggot if they wanted to. I also came because I had always wondered why there was such low visibility for women in gaming, and why the gayming community is mainly male-dominated, so I wanted to express my solidarity with you all for creating this space. My hope is that this community will thrive and remain as free from corporate advertisement as possible (which is why I donated what meagre funds are left in my PayPal account to this site.) In any event, I'm not here to co-opt this lesbian space, so I apologize if I'm coming off that way. (And if I am, please, by all means tell me what it is that I'm doing so that I can correct my behaviour.) |
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| Jude |
@Sierra: I kind of like having you here, because you are polite and consider things carefully before you write, and you usually have interesting points to make.
As long as the site doesn't get flooded with gay guys, (that's happened to several lesbian real-life hangouts I've known--I guess the guys felt safe there, but it kind of ruined it as a lesbian place), I'd like to have you hang out here. But if some of the women feel uncomfortable and like they cannot be open with a male around, I understand that, too, especially since you are bi, and therefore not as "safe" to be around as most gay guys. Please don't take offence, but it is hard for women to find places to be open and not feel hampered or even in danger from guys.... 
But you were honest from the start, and seem quite considerate, so maybe you could be the exception to the lesbian population, if you really want to stick around now that you've made buddies here. Jude |
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| minit |
I have not known Sierra for a long time, but I would like to say that he is just what he says he is. He is also sincere and intelligent. To me he understands a great deal. I do not care for the idea that he can never fully understand because he is male. At the same time I am fully aware that a great many males actually will never get it, nor do they want to.
We both, and others in our community/clan, think that it is important for us all to network and support each other in this world. No pressure though! The Fraggot Clan is comprised of mostly gay males. At this time I am the only lesbian who is active in the clan. It is a GLBTS community that would very much like more LBTS folks to play games with! Of course, if I was not in that community I still would of come here! 
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| Colvin |
No prob gg, I'll also agree to disagree. I'm sure we all have interesting points to make and that's why there is a forum. I'm not going to get pulled into some 'she hates men' thing because you happen to be a guy hanging out on a lesbian forum. |
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| Gadget Girl |
Hey everyone,
I've been reading through this and there's a lot of interesting points in it. I think that having lesbians as parents would be great, but will take a very long time,.. if ever to be accepted. As a lesbian parent myself, I'm happy to say that I have been met with a lot of positive responses from people, although I didn't birth the children, so can't comment on the idea of having two women give birth to a child without a man's involvement. I have also read about this before though and I think it's fascinating. I would like to pick up on the comment about women being natural carers. I think that this is a socially created stereotype to keep women in their role to be honest. I think that any gender class will touch on this. Women are considered natural carers over men because it helps to perpetuate the notion that women should be at home looking after the kids before a man should. It's still very rare for these roles to be reversed and on the occasions they do, they're seen as unusual generally. I'm not really sure what the point is that is being made Sierra. It seems like you are saying lesbians should be considered equal in parenting which is great. But I don't think that it's a natural assumption to make that this is because of women being natural carers. Anyway, just my opinion for what it's worth. I think that ideally the world would change and men would step outside of their masculine boxes and be able to express themselves more freely without social constraints... still.. that's unlikely to happen. Oh and also I just wanted to add that yes, I think a lot of women prefer a lesbian space to be lesbian. That's not to say you're not welcome here and I hope it doesn't come across as that, but I think that generally it's hard to find a woman only space at times and sometimes it's hard to understand why a guy would hang out in that space. Hope that makes sense from my own personal perspective. xx |
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| Sierra |
Don't worry. I don't think we were getting to that point. And I do apologize for derailing the whole thread, which was not my intention. I was just wondering about the issue of lesbian parenting, and it seemed to me that lesbian parents would be at least as good, if not better than other parent couples. The way I chose to say it didn't seem sexist or essentialist at the time, but now I can see why it was. Gadget Girl made it clear for me:
I realize now that this is what you, Colvin, and GirlyG had been saying, but I was too obtuse to see what you meant. Something about the way Gadget Girl expressed it made it clear to me. In this context, I can see the error in my thought process, and I thank you for correcting me. And although it was not my intention to be sexist, I can see that it was, so I apologize for that.
I wholeheartedly agree, and I am very optimistic about the change in the long-term.
No, it's okay, I'll try to back off. I was actually afraid I might be invading your space. I was just thinking it would be rude of me to join and post about another community without participating in this one. Anyway, I apologize for derailing the thread. In the (hopefully not) vain hope of getting this discussion back on track, I would just like to add a few more thoughts about sperm from eggs. Perhaps it might be illegal in many places to carry out such a procedure, but I don't think a constitutional basis could exist for it. This process doesn't harm anyone, and therefore it should be allowed. Were such laws to be challenged in court, I think the laws would have to be voided. Anyway, this is a spectacular scientific advance, because it has very positive implications for stem-cell research, which is now completely ham-strung by the ridiculous "bio-ethics" imposed by right-wing nut-jobs. |
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| Jude |
Since when has the government let the constitution keep them from passing any laws they wanted to? For example: the whole no gay marriage thing...and states not recognizing marriages done in other states... 
See, that's what I meant about you being polite and considerate! 
Jude |
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| Gadget Girl |
Hey you don't have to back off. You're more than welcome here. I am sure everyone agrees. And yeah for sure it would have been annoying to have someone just post about their own site all the time and not participate. We're cool here, no worries. Keep chatting
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| minit |
Yay!
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| FyreHawk711 |
ladies... it's an artificial form of parthenogenesis. parthenogenesis is actually a naturally occurring phenomenon.
here's a link to the article in question, courtesy of NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4227604 the end of men? not likely. we still need them to construct things, like roads, homes, grocery stores, etc. ha, ha! |